Whiney ingénue: Christine in Kay's Phantom (ARGH)

[Hi-chan]

Hi there. ;D

This is my little thread where we can discuss Christine in most every phan's favorite version, Susan Kay's Phantom. I, personally, didn't like the book, but most about everyone else does, so...

In this thread, we will discuss what we thought about Kay's Christine, why in the heck she was such a whiney little whimpy crybaby, and attempt to uncover some of her redeeming qualities (if she has any).

I'll start. I despised her. She was horribly written (a fault of the author). Also...why'd she stand up Raoul at the end?! I mean, give me a frigging break. Could she have been any more cliché?!

She was the perfect E/C Christine, and it pissed me off quite a bit. I expected her to be better than that. Especially after I read Leroux a few weeks after and saw how she was supposed to be, then I was REALLY mad. Just...not for me.

Okay, now it's your turn. Anyone care to defend her? Perhaps she has some redeeming qualities I might have overlooked. Any takers?

[The Black Domino]

I do not know where to begin, so I shall just pop up whatever comes to mind…

Susan Kay’s Christine is a beyond, spoiled, whiney, brat. And I do not hate her because I strongly support R/C but because she is simply portrayed horridly, and dumbly.

Christine Daaé is supposed to be innocent but *not* naïve and idiotic, which was what this version of Christine was. An innocent persona does not equal to idiotism.

SK wanted to add a bit of every version of phantom to her story, but obviously, Leroux’s version was her main base, and clearly GL’s Christine is far from SK!Christine. So there go some points for bad portrayal.

The thing is that SK!Christine was not whiney, as in 9 or even 7 years old, but the whininess of a 3 or 5 year old. Really, in various scenes she just behaved like a toddler. Those include, the mirror scene, the "Carlotta I hope you get nodules in your throat" scene, the un-masking scene, the "Aïda bride" scene, the don juaning (remembering that scene now, it was somewhat hilarious) scene, the “Christine sing for the Ghost” scene, and even the kiss scene.

In some scenes (like the ones I just mentioned), she was just so unaware of reality, and pitying herself too much, but in the way that she was doing it was what was making dumb. As it said once in a quiz result, she took the “wandering child” think way too far.

Another thing that I extremely did not appreciate about SK!Christine was her treatment to Raoul (who was also portrayed horridly); she did not care for him. She cared for Erik, and Erik only, and as I said before, it’s not that I’m very R/C-sh, but that this is a love triangle story. She must love both, if not, it’s a romance story. Not to mention, I didn’t cry at all at the end of this book because it literally had a happy ending. When Raoul says “Now she can be with whom she really wanted to be with” (or something very similar), it’s a happy ending. Compared to Leroux or even ALW, no doubt is it happily ever after.

Maybe it’s just that I’m a LerouxChristine and AlwChristine person, but I think that anyway this version of Christine was awful. …And I could still go on pointing out things that I hate about SK's Christine, but I'll just settle for those few reasons.

[Hi-chan]

Amen, Black Domino! ;D

So! It appears we've chosen to pick her apart criticize her character. Excellent. *grins evily* lol.

You know, when I was in the shower earlier, I was thinking...Black Domino, you slightly touched on the fact that Raoul was also horribly written and that got me thinking...Perhaps, by the time Kay got to that part (which is basically only the last, like, 50 or so pages), she was so bored and was just trying to finish. I know it is Erik's story, but she was just so careless with everyone else's character that it was pathetic.

You also touched on another of my pet peeves of Kay's book: The fact that Christine apparently (and, this peeved me royally), had virtually no feelings for Raoul whatsoever. I mean, you're right, this is supposed to be a TRIANGLE, what the heck is that??? I am under the impression that Kay must have misinterpreted Leroux, because, if Leroux was indeed her main base, and it's obvious that it is, then she missed the mark by a million miles.

But, seriously. Kay treated Raoul like he wasn't a very important part of the story at all...which we all know isn't true! You notice that Leroux's voice follows Raoul for about 3/5 of the entire story! One fifth is split between the Managers and Christine, and the other fifth is the Persian, but never Erik! (Did anyone else notice this?) So, no one can say that Raoul is not important.

And because Kay doesn't think Raoul is a big part of the story, consequently, Christine doesn't either. Her reactions toward him were very cliché and sterotypical of any dumb E/C phiction on ff.net! It was pathetic. She was treating him like trash and tossing him aside like last week's Sunday paper. At the end of the story, where everyone was crying "Poor Erik!" I was all like "Poor Erik? Nuh-uh, man, poor Raoul".

Oh, and apparently Christine didn't care much about her child either. *grumbles angrily under her breath about Christine being bratty and too immature to care for her child and then leaving Raoul to take care of some d*** kid that wasn't even his* Yah! That's right. It was pathetic and I hated it!! How in God's name can anyone subject someone to that kind of torture? Having to raise the kid of some deformed freak who tried to kill you 'cause your pathetic wife was TOO FRIGGIN' WEAK-WILLED AND IDIOTIC??? DX

*Leaves forum before temper rises too much, and shouts praises to high heaven that there are no E/C shippers to shoot her down for this post ;D*

[The Black Domino]

hikaruchan48 said:

Amen, Black Domino! ;D

So! It appears we've chosen to pick her apart criticize her character. Excellent. *grins evily* lol.

Of course we can bash and through darts at critique her wisely.

hikaruchan48 said:

Perhaps, by the time Kay got to that part (which is basically only the last, like, 50 or so pages), she was so bored and was just trying to finish. I know it is Erik's story, but she was just so careless with everyone else's character that it was pathetic.

Agreed! Poor Raoul was so abandoned, but even more importantly horridly portrayed. I recall that in Christine's last performance of Faust she told him 'to not start a show right here' or something very similar, for he had apparently 'raised' his voice to her a little. Please. When would Raoul, Vicomte de Changy, do something like that? In GL's version, the most violent thing Raoul did was that he shot a cat. And c'mon, he was completely unconscious of it.

One of the most important things in GL's version of the R/C relationship is that Christine and Raoul share the same type of child-like soul. And it's clearly noticeable (maybe Christine may have a wee bit of more maturity than Raoul there, but the relationship is still very well-balanced, and that also kind of makes it even a cuter relation). As I posted on a LerouxForum earlier today, Christine has the maturity of a woman, and the soul of a child. Not vice versa, like Kay did.

Also something quite nice (and a bit funny) to note is that one the German translation of Phantom, the first 30 pages of the book were edited and some were cut, well I once read that a phan said that the last 60 pages should have been the ones cut. Me agrees like whoa.

hikaruchan48 said:

You also touched on another of my pet peeves of Kay's book: The fact that Christine apparently (and, this peeved me royally), had virtually no feelings for Raoul whatsoever. I mean, you're right, this is supposed to be a TRIANGLE, what the heck is that??? I am under the impression that Kay must have misinterpreted Leroux, because, if Leroux was indeed her main base, and it's obvious that it is, then she missed the mark by a million miles.

Exactly! There was just so much lack of relationship balance in this book that it was awful. Believe me, I hate the 2004 movie incredibly a lot, but one thing that I worship it for is the magnificent amount of relationship triangles that there are (Christine loves Raoul and Erik, Erik loves Christine, Raoul loves Christine, they want to kill each other, Meg is attracted to Erik at some point, and Madame Giry at least cares for him a bit, etc). I mean she didn't have to make the relationships so complex but definitely not so sharp and plain.

hikaruchan48 said:

But, seriously. Kay treated Raoul like he wasn't a very important part of the story at all...which we all know isn't true! You notice that Leroux's voice follows Raoul for about 3/5 of the entire story! One fifth is split between the Managers and Christine, and the other fifth is the Persian, but never Erik! (Did anyone else notice this?) So, no one can say that Raoul is not important.

I completely noticed what you're talking about Hi-chan. And that balance of importance of character is one of the many things that draws me to this book. In this version too, there was so much clearness of the complexity of who-loves-who and everyone's point of view and how everyone was that though it may not be 'professionally' written or whatever (which I actually care zero about), it gives just so much depth to the book. I mean, one second I was in Opera Ghost-Manager World, the next into the Raoul-Christine-Life in Sweden-memories, the next into Nadir's point of view, and the last into all the four main character's point of viw. And every character was described keenly, so you could study the possible relations that there could have been (even La Sorelli, which is poorly noticed in the phandom, was described well and did get her little attention).

hikaruchan48 said:

And because Kay doesn't think Raoul is a big part of the story, consequently, Christine doesn't either. Her reactions toward him were very cliché and sterotypical of any dumb E/C phiction on ff.net! It was pathetic. She was treating him like trash and tossing him aside like last week's Sunday paper. At the end of the story, where everyone was crying "Poor Erik!" I was all like "Poor Erik? Nuh-uh, man, poor Raoul".

Agreed once more! Not to mention, one of the dumbest parts of the book was when Erik asked Christine whom she wanted to marry in such of a tender way. As if that would ever happen. And not just that he asked her that in such of a way but also in the forum that Christine took it, sure, she went to meet Raoul on the rooftop, but she was definitely so-so with the whole idea. And she cared so little when Raoul was turning into chicken BBQ on the Torture Chamber. Aw.

I always say that the last three narrations of the book are just [bad] phics disguised by poetic words and accurate information of that time period. Nothing else.

hikaruchan48 said:

Oh, and apparently Christine didn't care much about her child either. *grumbles angrily under her breath about Christine being bratty and too immature to care for her child and then leaving Raoul to take care of some d*** kid that wasn't even his* Yah! That's right. It was pathetic and I hated it!! How in God's name can anyone subject someone to that kind of torture? Having to raise the kid of some deformed freak who tried to kill you 'cause your pathetic wife was TOO FRIGGIN' WEAK-WILLED AND IDIOTIC??? DX

Another thing that bugged me a lot about SK's book! That poor child! Christine did not care a darn about him! Nothing! I just hated that.

Also, now that we've gotten to the part where Christine and Raoul are already married, I just have to point out how I hate it when Ayesha bites Raoul. Not always but, usually only the villain in a story will be the one to get bitten by an animal. Wow.

Ooh, one last thing, I beyond hate this: Kay's Christine is a whiney ingénue, but she deals with sexual situations that completely do not suite her character! Like, for example, her 'Don Juaning' (when Erik plays his Don Juan… etc.), and, of course, the last visit to Erik, where, well, you know...

*Starts smacking her punch-able Kay!Chrisitne life-size doll*

[Angel]

Yikes. I was actually really looking forward to the day when I could finally lay my hands on Kay, but there seems to be a lot of hate for this version around here ... I've been reading through this thread, even though I sadly can't contribute my opinion, and if this is how the relationships are portrayed, then I'm a bit dubious about whether I should fork over for the book ... all the copies I find online are hideously expensive. Is it worth the read just to say you've read it? (Or for amusement purposes at characterisation -- or lack thereof?)

[creampuff]

So, kill me for this, but I thought that Christine's sexuality was portrayed quite well. She's whiney, but so much of that whineyness comes from the fact that its through her point of view.

I don't know why people say that she doesn't care about Raoul- I thought that it was quite the opposite.

[Jaycee]

angel said:

Yikes. I was actually really looking forward to the day when I could finally lay my hands on Kay, but there seems to be a lot of hate for this version around here ... I've been reading through this thread, even though I sadly can't contribute my opinion, and if this is how the relationships are portrayed, then I'm a bit dubious about whether I should fork over for the book ... all the copies I find online are hideously expensive. Is it worth the read just to say you've read it? (Or for amusement purposes at characterisation -- or lack thereof?)

Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but don't they have it at a library near where you live? I haven't read it yet either, because I want to finish Leroux first, but I've seen if in my school library and I'll probably get it from there.

[Hi-chan]

mademoiselle said:

Also, now that we've gotten to the part where Christine and Raoul are already married, I just have to point out how I hate it when Ayesha bites Raoul. Not always but, usually only the villain in a story will be the one to get bitten by an animal. Wow.

Yeah, seriously. Why is Raoul often misinterpreted as the bad guy? He's not, people. Oh, and also, at that part, it isn't that Ayesha bites Raoul that pisses me off. It's how Christine just brushes it off completely by saying some bullcrap along the lines of "Leave Ayesha alone, you know she doesn't like strangers." WHAT. THE. H***. IS. THAT?!?! My God, where's the love??? *fumes*

Quote--creampuff: "I don't know why people say that she doesn't care about Raoul- I thought that it was quite the opposite."

You wanna try explaining that one to me? I don't see any evidence of Raoul not caring about Christine, everything he does is for her and she doesn't give a d***. That's one of the things that make her so unlikable in that book. I mean, I'm reading this part of the book, and it's so obvious that Christine doesn't give a crap about Raoul, and I'm thinking, "Why the heck are they even married??" She may as well stayed in that bloody dungeon to rot with Erik's carcass if she really felt that way. It makes no sense. The way Kay interprets the relationship, it would have been much better if they were not married at all. Sure, that goes against my beliefs as an R/C shipper, but in Kay's book, I believe Raoul would have been happier WITHOUT Christine. He knows she doesn't love him and he is miserable. It's sad.

But, if there's anything you think I might have missed, I'd love to hear your side. Because frankly, as much as I love analyzing, rereading that book to try and search for new evidence myself really isn't worth a darn minute of my time.

[creampuff]

First of all, don't get snippy with me.

I don't know what you expect Christine and Raoul's relationship to be. I'm probably saying this all in vain, anyway, but I'll give my opinion.

When was Christine ever really affectionate to Raoul? She's not anymore 'loving' towards him in Leroux than in Kay. She spends time with him, pretends to be engaged to him, and has obvious feelings for him, but since when is she the damsel in distress and Raoul is the knight in shining armour? In Kay, whenever she can get away from Erik she goes to Raoul. I don't see how she doesn't love him. She sticks with him, is a good wife to him, and has a genuine happiness with him...what else do you expect from her? She loves her son fiercely and she loves Raoul fiercely. That's what counts, right?

Honestly, do you expect her to forget about Erik and just move on? How is that possible? She loved him- and don't give me that BS about how she only loved the angel but not the man- because he made her who she was, she owes him an eternal debt, why would or should she forget him?

Why is it that people can never give credence to either side of the relationship? I have to explain it to both sides and I always get yelled at for it.

I suppose that I'm going to get my head chewed out for this, but Raoul was *not* the most important thing to her. Her art was. Her music was. When she never sang again in Leroux, that has extreme significance.

She was changed when Erik died, because he was part of her art and her music. When he died, part of her died with him until she could ressurrect it again. The rest, she gave wholly to Raoul, because she loved him dearly.

Did that help?

[creampuff]

And, another one:

Siamese cats are incredibly protective and aggressive. The cat's master was Erik, and Ayesha had to settle for Christine when he died. The cat didn't like Raoul. To her, Raoul was a stranger. It happens a lot with animals. The attach themselves to some people and not others.

If you have to get symbolic about it, think of the cat as the part of Christine that Raoul will never have. I guess. I don't think that it was that big of a deal.

One of my hamsters hates my mother with a passion, don't ask me why but he does. He just likes me and my dad. It's just an animal thing.

Charles bears incredibly resemblance to Erik, at least in his personality/music/blah blah. I've also noticed that female Siamese cats have extreme maternal instincts. It makes sense. Even if the kid was Raoul's, the cat probably would have adopted him/her. That's just Siamese cats.

[The Black Domino]

I don't know what you expect Christine and Raoul's relationship to be.

While in SK’s version I don’t expect it to be an exact duplicate of Leroux’s portrayal of the relation, I do expect it to be like it. I believe that Leroux’s portrayal of R/C is that it’s a childlike relation, it is love, as well as Christine and Erik’s relation is love in it’s own strange way. Either how I tend to believe that both relations are rather not the everyday love, and SK managed to do that well with E/C on her version, but she lacked R/C. The relations need to be equal; the story’s a love triangle. And if Kay’s intention for it were far from making it a love triangle, then I’d say it’s just a matter of taste.

but since when is she the damsel in distress and Raoul is the knight in shining armour?

Never. But that’s what I refer to when I meant that Christine’s love for Erik and Raoul is not an everyday love, it’s just a strange type of love. Not to mention it’s equal to them both, so I believe.

In Kay, whenever she can get away from Erik she goes to Raoul. I don't see how she doesn't love him. She sticks with him, is a good wife to him, and has a genuine happiness with him...what else do you expect from her? She loves her son fiercely and she loves Raoul fiercely. That's what counts, right?

Christine in Kay does spend her time w/ Raoul when’s she’s not w/ Erik, but whenever she is around with Raoul there is that childhood chemistry lacking, I see. She cares for him, but studying her sentences carefully it’s not as if she truly loved him. And if SK’s intention was to make Christine look like she really loved Raoul then, I do not get that impression. As I stated earlier, this doesn’t need to be a copy of Leroux’s book, but I prefer the way Leroux’s portrays the relations.

Honestly, do you expect her to forget about Erik and just move on? How is that possible? She loved him- and don't give me that BS about how she only loved the angel but not the man- because he made her who she was, she owes him an eternal debt, why would or should she forget him?

Duh, would she never forget Erik. They had this undeniable chemistry and strange type of love, and he trained her voice and at some points her soul. But it’s not that she will forget about Erik, is that after the whole affair she’s way too traumatized, but it’s not really that she’s traumatized, it’s *how* she’s traumatized. As in, she just wants to be with her Erik, and it’s noticeable in so many ways on that part of the book. And of course, how could she not think of Erik often and seriously at times, but it just seemed too much. This is what I mean when I say that SK just didn’t balance the relationships well.

Why is it that people can never give credence to either side of the relationship? I have to explain it to both sides and I always get yelled at for it.

I’m not an R/C purist, I try to support all the possible relations equally, but on this time I’m just defending R/C, however I’m not really saying, “She needs to make Christine love Raoul and hate Erik!”. No, I actually want her to love *both*. I just don’t see her love Raoul that much; she seems to care for Erik more than for Raoul.

I suppose that I'm going to get my head chewed out for this, but Raoul was *not* the most important thing to her. Her art was. Her music was. When she never sang again in Leroux, that has extreme significance.

Well in SK’s version definitely was Raoul not the most important thing that happened to her, and I think that in Leroux too, however in GL’s version, she did care for him a lot, even if she had other priorities.

One way or another I don’t completely hate SK!Christine, but indeed her whininess and lack of caring for Raoul, the way I see it, does make me dislike her a lot.

As for Ayesha, Siamese cats are very pesky at times, but still the whole action of biting him made him look too much like a villain for me.

[creampuff]

I *do* agree that some of the childhood chemistry is lacking. That's probably my biggest complaint. You're right, she didn't balance the relationship well enough. I think that she *tried*, but didn't quite make it.

I must agree with saying that Leroux's portrayal is better. Kay's book could have been more. Even the ending- maybe she could have pulled it off better. I think that she's a talented writer, I just wish that she had given more credence to R/C. She did a good job with E/C, IMO, but forgot to put the R/C to make it more even.

Haha. I've had Siamese cats so often, I didn't think anything of it until I read it on here. :lol:

[The Black Domino]

I agree that she tried to make this book good, not to mention one of the reasons why I am mad that she made this part bad was because the rest of the book was great, if the whole book would have been a disaster I would have actually not cared so much, but SK managed to write a good book most of the time, and the fact that the last part was just mostly bad, was disappointing. Meh, it'd be a miracle if Leroux's narration of Erik's Opera House era would combine w/ Kay’s narration of Erik's child and Persia era. That would be the perfect Phantom book, even if the writing styles together wouldn't combine well.

[Hi-chan]

creampuff said:

First of all, don't get snippy with me.

Um... ... ... ...I was being serious.

Geez, there I go again. Sorry for being naturally sarcastic...I was only simply asking for a second opinion, and you gave it. No need to bite my head off, if you want to talk about someone getting yelled at. I try to be considerate to people's feelings, but then I get hit with false assumptions about me being "snippy" and "inconsiderate" and "rude", when I was only stating my opinion.

::sigh:: Whatever. All I'm saying is that Kay's focus seemed out the window when it came to the last part of the book and it bugged the crap out of me. And, unlike The Black Domino, I can't be so forgiving. She may as well tried to write her own thing, but with the Leroux background in the story, she could have done much better than a sorry half-job. Nowhere in Leroux does Erik act like such a pathetic sap, nowhere does Christine act like a childish moron, and nowhere and no how would Raoul just let Christine's relationship with Erik go unchecked (meaning, that pathetic cliched crap Kay tried to pull at the end would not have happened in Leroux because of Raoul's stubborness, which in this case, IMO, is a huge blessing XP).

And...I'm not saying she can forget Erik, either. Would I like her to? Yes. Is it realistically possible? No. However, while I acknowledge her relationship with Erik, I don't support it. I find no reason to. It makes no sense to me and has enough supporters as it is. Kay's novel is obvious proof of that. Anyway, bottom line-- if Kay wanted to make her novel E/C, all I was simply stating is that she could have done it without making Christine such a whiney punk-brat and without making poor Raoul look like a fool. Need I even mention that sappy excuse she called "Erik"? Argh...the real Erik would have had convulsions reading that portrayal of himself.

[creampuff]

Erik whined more in Leroux than in Kay. Not to mention-how often does Erik appear in Leroux? Not often at all. We don't get a first-person glimpse into who he is. Of course he's an emotionally screwed up sap.

As far as Raoul letting Christine's relationship with Erik go unchecked in Leroux, I seem to remember that Raoul had nothing to do with their relationship. He would nag and rather whine to Christine, and she would get pissed off at him. Raoul was stubborn but it wasn't just because he loved Christine- it was because he had a 19th cenury attitude towards her. He wanted her, he went after her. When she didn't do like he wanted her to, he went into a frenzy.

[The Black Domino]

hikaruchan48 said:

without making Christine such a whiney punk-brat and without making poor Raoul look like a fool.

Nice point there, I think that's just the main problem. The factor of what made the last part of the book bad isn't really complex, it's just an important part of the book, and a big problem, but not really complex. I think it's just as simple as that. Easy does it.

creampuff said:

Raoul was stubborn but it wasn't just because he loved Christine- it was because he had a 19th cenury attitude towards her. He wanted her, he went after her. When she didn't do like he wanted her to, he went into a frenzy.

Well yeah, SK!Raoul's attitude is definitely a 19th century attitude, but in Leroux's novel it was the same century however Raoul's attitude was different, he was more caring and comprehensive than SK!Raoul. And though, I don't deny that SK's Raoul was comprehensive at times. But when he was, Christine just ignored him. I miss that chemistry that they had on Leroux, on Kay, half of that chemistry just fell.

[creampuff]

I agree. There's a force in Leroux that makes them cling to each other. It's not there so much in Kay.

The more I think about it, the more I wish it was.

[eriksprotege]

Personally, I adore Kay's novel until she gets to where Leroux started. That's when the story starts rolling down the hill. UGH.

So, what I do is, I read Kay's novel until she gets to where Leroux started, then put it down and pick up the Leroux novel. Simple.

[Jaycee]

eriksprotege said:

Personally, I adore Kay's novel until she gets to where Leroux started. That's when the story starts rolling down the hill. UGH.

So, what I do is, I read Kay's novel until she gets to where Leroux started, then put it down and pick up the Leroux novel. Simple.

That is pure genius....and I agree with you 100%, I think she must have gotten to where Leroux started and then said "Oh well, this part's already been written, I don't have to actually make an effort on this , do I?"

[eriksprotege]

Nah, I think she imagined herself as Christine and Michael Crawford as Erik.

Understandable, really. But still, I have no idea how she got that part PUBLISHED.